Question What dedicated video camera would you recommend under A$2500

Hi Derek,

Haven't heard from you for a while so I hope you are doing OK after all of the dreadful medical issues you have had to deal with.

I currently have a Cannon HFG 10 video camera and am looking to upgrade. I am not a fan of Sony products - long story.  I have been looking at the Canon HFG 70 which looks like a good camera and shoots 4K video  in MP4 "MP4 Recording The VIXIA HF G70 supports MP4 recording, specifically, 4K UHD at 150 Mb/s 30/24p, plus 1080p at 35 Mb/s or 17 Mb/s at 60/30/24p" to quote from their site.  One of my issues is that my current Canon shoots in AVCHD format & outputs an MTS file. I do not understand codec so have included that for your info.

My main issue is that when I render my video out to an MP4 file it loses sharpness and when panning is quite "jittery" even when panning slowly.  If I output the render to an m2ts file the picture is clearer and sharper and flows more smoothly but it will often freeze when playing back on my Samsung Smart TV .  I mainly shoot holiday video when I am overseas so there is allot of scenery and given that video is about motion I like to pan when shooting video.  I generally shoot about 6 hours of video then edit this file down to a more watchable 2 hour production which takes me around 80 hours, sometimes more.  It is very frustrating with the issues I am experiencing and have reached out to you before for assistance and you have been very helpful. Thank You.

My question really is, if I purchase a new camera for my next video (we are heading to Vietnam and Cambodia later next year) will it stop some of the issues I am having?

 I currently am using Vegas Pro 19 and upgraded my PC earlier this year - Specs:  Processor 12th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-12600KF   3.70 GHz. Installed RAM 32.0 GB (31.9 GB usable), Device ID D2A86CEE-43BA-4404-8666-B55C0E4ECB35, Product ID 00330-80145-34634-AA838,  System type 64-bit operating system, x 64-based processor. Graphics Card NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 Ti.

What video camera under $2500 (dedicated video camera) other than a Sony would you recommend that has great low light capability, good stabilisation as I am often walking when shooting video and would not cause the current issues I am experiencing with Rendering and Playback.  I am a bit of a Canon fan and the HFG 70 has some good reviews.  I would buy one of the higher end more professional cameras but they become too bulky for travel so something around the physical size of the HFG 70 is about my limit for practical reasons.

I have done lots of searching on the web but have found it more confusing than helpful.  I would be very grateful for any assistance you could provide when you have the time.

Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a Healthy and Happy new year.

Sincerely,  Joe

As a Canon Legria HFG10 PAL user I can probably explain your problem.  You are probably shooting 1080 60i.

Your 60i is captured as 30 interlaced frames.  On deinterlacing this gives 60fps and smooth movement.  Exporting as a m2ts file will maintain this as it's also 60i.  I suspect with your mp4 exports you have chosen 30 fps which will use only one field and produce 30 progressive fps which can look jerky with pans etc.  If you export to mp4 using 60 fps this should improve the problem.  More modern cameras (my HFG10 is 11 years old now) shoot 1080 at 60 fps progressive which is preferable.  Personally with my HFG10 I prefer to export as m2ts and convert this to mp4 1080 50p (I'm PAL) using Handbrake.

But be warned when looking for a consumer 4K camera many shoot 4K at 30 fps progressive, not 60 fps progressive.  To me going from 60 to 30 is a backward step.

Several of my video friends are using 4K cameras, mainly Panasonic, and 25fps (PAL) is common.  I haven't found one that shoots 50fps but they are using consumer cameras not Pro. Looking at your prospective Canon HFG70 it appears to also only shoot 4K at 30fps but will shoot 1080 at 60fps.

Hi ericlnz,

Thanks for your response.  I am in Oz so also use the PAL format. 

I am shooting footage on the highest setting available - MXP and using the "standard" frame rate of 50i.  My HFG10 only gives me 2 options for frame rate 50i (standard) 50 fields per second interlaced or 25 frames per second progressive (recorded as 50i). I have double checked the handbook and the actual settings in my camera to confirm this.  I do not appear to have the option to shoot in 60i. The video creates an .MTS file which I bring into Vegas Pro 19 for editing and rendering.

I have spent a couple of hours playing with different render settings today to give more info.  I tried to render some footage I took in a park panning right to left and up and down as I took in the gardens and trees. The two following examples output an .m2t file:

Under the MainConcept MPEG-2 Templates HDV 1080-50i
Template info:   Audio:384 Kbps,48,000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo, MPEG Video:25 fps,1440x1080 Upper field first, YUM, 25 Mbps Pixel Aspect Ratio 1.333
The issue with this one is that it is 1440 x 1080 & not 1920 x 1080, however the video image is quite sharp and very little blurring or jitter when panning, quite watchable but not perfect. 

Under the MainConcept MPEG-2 Templates HDV 1080-25p
Template info:  Audio:384 Kbps,48,000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo, MPEG Video:25 fps,1440x1080 Progressive, YUM, 25 Mbps Pixel Aspect Ratio 1.333 
The issue with this one again is that it is 1440 x 1080 & not 1920 x 1080, in addition the video image is less sharp and quite blurry with some jitter when panning, not really watchable. 

Under the settings MAGIX AVC/AAC MP4 is the following template: Render per Ytbe settings HD 1080p 25 fps 
Template info:   Use this setting to create am MP4 (AVC/AAC) file for progressive internet downloads.Audio:256 Kbps, 48,000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo, AAcVideo5 fps, 1920x1080 Progressive, NV12, 50 MbpsPixel Aspect ratio: 1.000 
When I play this video back the images become blurry, almost ghosting and the movement is not smooth. Definitely the worst result of all.I had to go back to my Movie Studio 16 to get a .m2ts template as I got a pop up message which advised this was not unlocked on my Vegas Pro 19 version considering I did not get the basic package  . Weird!

Under the Sony AVC/MVC templates:AVCHD 1920X1080-50I  (saved this as a favourite so I could easily find it)
Template info:   Outputs an m2ts digital fileAudio:192 Kbps, 48,000 Hz, 24 Bit, Stereo, AC3Video 255 fps, 1920x1080 Upper field first, YUM, 16 MbpsPixel Aspect ratio: 1.000
This template has given me the best result and does a good job rendering.  The issue with this one is that when I play it back on my Samsung smart TV it will sometimes freeze and get “stuck”.  I have split my files to help alleviate this into Part 1 and Part 2 which go for about 60 minutes each yet they can still become frozen.  The TV is now almost 5 years old but at the time I completed editing this video and rendered it the TV was just a few months old. Also, the monitor I am currently using for my PC I got for Christmas.  It is an Acer E12 series – E1322QUR which has been designed with a high refresh rate for gaming.  I make the point so you know that I am not using outdated equipment that can’t cope with the demands of the video.

Having done this exercise it has shown me that a “progressive” format does not work and anything that has “upper field first” (I imagine this is talking about the upper field of the interlaced video) outputs a watchable video file.  I believe the interlacing used by this camera (which I understand is old technology) is half my issue.  Look forward to receiving further insight.

Many Thanks 

Joe, my apologies.  When you showed the specs for a Vixia camera I assumed you were in the US.  I realise now you had A$ in your thread title.  So in my reply read 25 for 30 and 50 for 60.  You should be looking at the Legria PAL version of your proposed camera www.canon.com.au/cameras/legria-hfg70 .  Looking at its specs I note its lens has a 9 bladed aperture and its sensor an 8 bladed aperture.  I don't know the significance of those.  Maybe they help smooth out the jerkiness of only being able to shoot 4K at 25fps?  It also appears to have a socket for a remote which some consumer video cameras don't nowadays.  Instead with them you can download an app for your phone and use that!  Presumably the Canon HFG70 remote is an optional extra (possibly expensive) like the HFG10.  But there's no IR remote provided unlike the HFG10 which is what I use as its activated by pointing at the screen so can be used from behind when on a tripod.  I enjoy the challenge of closeup insect videography for which a tripod and remote is essential.  If I was to get a new camera then subject to the remote availability and price I'd get the Canon Legria HFG70 as like you I prefer Canon.

As for your HFG10 exports - with your 4th template Sony AVCHD I use this.  I've not had problems with my ten year old Panasonic TV but I don't make long videos.  My max length is usually 15 minutes.  If your long m2ts files play okay on your pc then perhaps your Samsung TV is struggling?  Do you have access to any other TVs you can try?  As for the AVCHD template not being unlocked on your VP19, were you connected to the internet?  My understanding is that it's a one time unlock.

With your other templates don't waste time with mpeg 2.  It belongs to SD days.  AVC (mpeg4/H264/AVC) is much more efficient and better for HD.  With the Magix and Sony AVC mp4 templates customise the framerate to 50 fps instead of 25 and see how much improvement this gives.

Shooting 1080 at 50p should obviously give better results than 1080 at 50i as you are recording whole frames.  Interlaced is really a thing of the past.  I wish the HFG10 shot 50p but having said that I'm happy with the quality I get.  My only problem is the bugs that Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 17, which I currently use, has with interlaced material when altering the play speed of a clip (Event).  But I have workarounds.


 

Hi Eric,No apologies needed, did not realise I had entered Vixia instead of Legria 😊, my mistake.

Thank you for your further update.I have had an in depth look at the Canon Legria HFG70 today and from this research looking at various articles, reviews by professionals and your input, feel this is the next best dedicated video camera for me to buy.  The pros go on about how much better mirrorless cameras are particularly in low light but to my mind they don’t have the ability to be able to quickly zoom in and out and don’t have all controls at your fingertips. In addition, other than a couple of weddings that I have shot for family and friends (mainly using a tripod), all my video is shot while holidaying overseas.  As video is about movement, I do the majority of my shots while moving so having a camera strapped to the palm of my hand (can’t do that with a non-dedicated video camera) helps compensate for the inevitable shaking (despite my best efforts which have improved overtime) and this model seems to have good image stabilisation. 

I spend a great deal of time editing to output a watchable video which is entertaining and captures the essence of the holiday so when I run into technical issues that I don’t understand, I find it highly frustrating.   My last big video project was 2019 where I cut down just under 6 hours of video to 2 hours with text and music to add some presence.  I spent about 75 hours on this project and at least another 10 hours sorting out technical issues. I am trying to avoid the technical issues “at all cost” for my next and subsequent video projects.

Regarding the remote for the HFG70, yes Canon do sell one but clearly it is for the professionals as the Canon rc-v100 remote controller for Legria HFG70 retails for $3,450!!!!  Almost twice the price of the Camera! Crazy!  Through some investigating I have found a thread on the Canon site on this very topic and you can buy a Hanpusen ZC-2 XI-ZC-2 / X001N3CEG9 through Amazon for $83.86 delivered or even better, AliExpress currently has the same one for $25.26 delivered.  Users say it works perfectly well with the HFG70. 

I tried the AVCHD template again on VP19 and it worked this time so guess it is now unlocked, thanks.

Regarding the Magix and Sony AVC mp4 templates, I can only find templates for progressive video which from my trials clearly don’t work with interlaced video.  I tried changing to 50 fps instead of 25 on the Sony AVC/MVC template AVCHD 1920X1080-50I but found the original setting of 25 gave a better result, but was worth a try.

FYI, I originally had a Canon MXV330i digital camcorder which shot to cassette.  It was a good little camera for the day but when I moved to the HFG10 the difference was like night and day, particularly in low light settings.  I note the HFG70 has a slightly bigger CEMOS sensor than the HFG10 so am hoping this will further improve shooting in low light and also note it has an optical zoom of 20x which is twice that of the HFG10.   I have been very happy with my HFG10 and marvel at the sharpness of the video it outputs, my only gripe is that it shoots in interlaced video and the issues that has caused me.  I feel my move to the HFG70 which shoots progressive video in .mp4 will resolve a number of these challenges.

Thanks again for your input Eric, it has made me spend the time to investigate the various render settings and also look further into purchasing another dedicated video camera as opposed to a mirrorless camera.  All of that combined with your input has made it clear that the HFG 70 will be my next Video camera.  Thanks again.

Thanks Joe for your info on the HFG70 remote.  Unbelievable price from Canon.

As for changing the framerate from 25 to 50 on export I was referring only to the mp4 progressive exports, not AVCHD.  Why exporting your 50i as 50p doesn't work for you is a puzzle.  While VMS's deinterlacing is not the best - oh I've just had a thought.  In your project properties what is Deinterlacing method set on?  Possibly the default "Blend fields" which personally I consider very inappropriate and for anything moving a disaster.  Put it on "Interpolate fields", and you should then get much, much better results if you were blending fields.



All the best for the New Year.

Eric

Hi Joe and Eric

Thanks for posting your email message into the MSZ Forum Joe !
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to both of you 
This Christmas my extended family was visiting my town (Griffith NSW), where Mum and Dad also live.
When you have a BIG family with different in-laws, one Christmas they're at their folks place and the next they're at the other in-laws place, so no one's nose gets out of joint.
Takes about a three year cycle for everyone to end up back home, which it did this year.
Everyone's gone back home today, so back to normal now...

This year 2023, I spent too much time in and out of hospital, after an operation that was not without risks.
That's all water under the bridge now (almost), so I am fully planning to get back to normal in 2024.

Now on to your questions/s.
Thanks Eric for your contributions.

It's a catch 22 trying to decide between a classic Video Camera (run and gun) versus a Mirrorless camera, like what I own.
Video Cameras use smaller sensors, whereas Mirrorless cameras often use a much bigger sensor, which is why they are generally better in Low Light situations.
I own a Sony A7s which I bought quite a few years ago now - this is a first generation extreme low light Mirrorless camera.
I have always done a lot of night video work, which is why I chose this camera.
The latest generation of my camera now offers much high Bit Rate options.
It requires much more effort (brain power) to use this type of camera, compared to a traditional video camera.
It also has better, more professional recording options.

Besides what Eric has already said, I highly recommend watching as many reviews of your camera selections as possible, on YouTube.
Real world reviews are the best.

One problem a lot of people have, is they forget to set their cameras to MAXIMUM quality recording modes, however I see that you are already doing this.
Interlaced recording on older cameras, is an older format.
Shooting only in Progressive Modes (P) with Higher Bit Rates, should offer much better picture quality.
I have zero experience with Canon cameras.
On my Sony Mirrorless, it has three File Formats:
1. XAVC S - this is the BEST quality, offering the highest bit rates.
2. AVCHD - second best option
3. MP4 - most basic

I downloaded the manual for LEGRIA HF G70
Going by the Bit Rate settings for this camera, it looks like it performs best in 4K mode, where it uses a Bit Rate of 150 Mbps.
1080p = 35 Mbps
Just remember you will need 4 x times the amount of Hard Drive space in your computer - probably will need a Hard Drive upgrade to store large 4K video files.
For editing, you will also need a more than decent Graphics Card, to handle the heavy workload.

As a comparison, in my mirrorless camera, it offers higher Bit Rates for recording 1080p video. (50 Mbps)

Another thing to throw into the mix, is most Video Cameras are locked to either PAL (25fps and 50fps) or NTSC (30fps and 60fps).
PAL = Australia, New Zealand, UK and most of Europe
NTSC = North America

With a Mirrorless camera, if you can generally switch between PAL and NTSC modes.
This is why I use Mirrorless, so I can access 24fps mode (Film frame rate).

I don't want to waffle on, so the last thing I will mention is about VEGAS Pro and rendering video.
Eric has pretty much said it all.
However, there is a Third Party hack you can apply to VEGAS Pro, which will give you many more rendering options and more precise controls/options.
Install an app called Voukoder - this uses the almost identical rendering engine as Handbrake does.
Using Voukoder, you should be able to reduce some of the problems with video that looks blurry when being panned left/right.
www.voukoder.org/
With Voukoder, you need to install the App and a Connector.
I do plan to make an in-depth tutorial about how to use this soon.
For now, I have posted basic instructions here:
www.moviestudiozen.com/forum/vegas-pro/3053-vegas-pro-render-settings-help#15295

Regards
Derek
 

EXTRA MESSAGE
As soon as I finished my first reply, I opened Outlook and got this email from Digital Camera Warehouse.
I did a check on the end of year specials for Canon Video cameras and found this alternate model, which is still in your price range.
This is Canon's entry level pro Video Camera, and offers more Frame Rate options, better Video Codec and better audio options, and more stuff as well...
HOWEVER! I reckon it would be worth checking with this website, as to whether the specifications are correct???!!!!
It looks like they have listed NTSC specs for USA and not PAL specs for Australia.
Always important to triple check the supported Frame Rates for a camera, before you buy
If buying a Video Camera in Australia, it MUST support PAL (25fps and 50fps) - important for shooting indoors with lights on, so you don't get powerline flicker in recordings.

www.digitalcamerawarehouse.com.au/canon-xa60-professional-uhd-4k-camcorder

Compare the specifications for this model and the HFG70
www.digitalcamerawarehouse.com.au/canon-legria-hfg70-uhd-4k-camcorder

If I had some spare cash right now, I wouldn't mind getting the XA60 myself.

Hi Derek and Eric,

A very Happy New year to you too.

Derek hopefully your health will be much improved in 2024.  I am normally a fit and healthy person but have also some health challenges this year.  At this point my long term prognosis is looking good so am looking forward to leaving 2023 behind and enjoying a healthier 2024 and beyond. 

Thank you so much for your input.  I have downloaded the Manual for the Canon XA60 to ensure I am looking at the Australian Specs and to compare it side by side with the HFG70.  As you know I am no expert, far from it in fact when it comes to all things technical to do with Videography.

Both models shoot in MP4 video configurations as below:
Resolution (bit rate)            Frame Rate 50.00P            Frame Rate 25.00P
3840x216 (150 Mbps)                   No                                      Yes
1920x1080 (35 Mbps)                   Yes                                     Yes
1920x1080 (17 Mbps)                   Yes                                     Yes

The XA60 does have the following additional recording options:
XF-AVC Video configurations as below:
Resolution (bit rate)            Frame Rate 50.00P Frame Rate 25.00i   Frame Rate 25.00P
3840x216 (160 Mbps)                   No                                      No                 Yes
1920x1080 (45 Mbps)                   Yes                                     Yes                Yes 

From what I can see, most of the other important things like the CMOS sensor size are identical as is the Lens Configuration: 12 elements in 10 groups (two aspheric elements).  Image stabilisation also looks to be the same.  The XA60 does get the handle with the option of attaching 2 professional external microphones but this is not something I would ever use, I am shooting video on the go.  At this point I don’t think I can justify and extra $600 for what the XA60 will give me over and above the HGF70, happy to hear your thoughts if you disagree.

Comparing the HFG10 that I have now with the HFG70 I think will be a good step up and with it shooting progressive video as opposed to interlaced will fix a number of my rendering issues.  Regarding disk space for 4K files, when I had my PC upgraded earlier this year, I added a 1 TB SSD which is dedicated to my video projects so am sure this will be more than ample.  Also, I spent $630 upgrading my Graphics Card to a NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 Ti so hope that is more than adequate to render the 4k files.  Please let me know if you don’t think so.  Also thanks for the tip on Voukoder which I have downloaded.  I look forward to an in depth video tutorial on this so I know I have the best settings plugged in.

Eric, thank you again for your input, I have changed the project properties to Interpolate fields and this has made a difference so thanks for the tip and all of your other good advice. 

I do have a question regarding reducing wind noise as the majority of my video is shot outside and have had a play with Sound Forge but will leave that topic for another day.

Thanks again.

Joe

Regarding disk space for 4K files, when I had my PC upgraded earlier this year, I added a 1 TB SSD which is dedicated to my video projects so am sure this will be more than ample.  Also, I spent $630 upgrading my Graphics Card to a NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 Ti so hope that is more than adequate to render the 4k files.  Please let me know if you don’t think so.

When I was talking about enough storage space on your computer, I was referring to the storage of the original Video Files off your camera.
Video files from camera will normally be very large and need to be stored on a high capacity HDD.
1 TB SSD for editing is great, but you do also need something like an 8 TB HDD or higher for long term storage.
Up to 8 TB HDDs can be found for very reasonable prices online. Once you hit 10 TB or higher, the price jumps significantly - however, these are also normally higher performance drives with longer warranty periods. In my main computer I have 2x 1 TB SSDs, but also a few 12 TB and 10 TB HDDs - which is mainly my archives of Video files.

In Australia, my two preferred (highly trusted) PC Parts shops are:
PC Case Gear
www.pccasegear.com/category/210_344/hard-drives-ssds/3-5-hard-drives
and... MWave
www.mwave.com.au/hdds/desktop-3.5-hdd-sata

RTX 4060Ti should be quite OK for editing 4K video.

I do have a question regarding reducing wind noise as the majority of my video is shot outside and have had a play with Sound Forge but will leave that topic for another day.

Investing in a good Rode Video Microphone with Deadcat wind sock, is the BEST way to reduce wind noise.
Capture great audio, then you won't have to repair it.
rode.com/en/microphones/on-camera
I recommend VideoMic Pro !